Free Exclusive Video Interview - Meet The $360-Million Dollar Man
Matt Schwartz

Transcript of Interview with Matt Schwartz

Dan: Welcome to another episode of Shoulders of Titans. This is Dan Lok and today I have a very special guest with me. Welcome Matt, welcome to the show.

Matt: Hi Dan, thank you for having me, appreciate it.

Dan: Matt, maybe before we talk about some of the executive strategies and how to find talents today, maybe take us back and share with us a little bit about your background and how you got into what you do today.

Matt: Fantastic, thank you. So I’ve been in executive search now for the last 23 years. When I started in the mid 90’s, I was with a boutique firm that specialized mostly in marketing and sales. At the time, we were transitioning a lot of classically trained, packaged goods executives to non-traditional businesses. I quickly became the guy that they called ‘The king of the fortune 6000,’ because I was filling the roles with companies that no one had ever heard of before; roles that needed a very significant conceptual story told about them and were often very difficult to fill.

So had great success there over about five and a half years, got recruited away to join Heidrick and Struggles, which is one of the largest global search firms in the world, where I ultimately was a principle in the global consumer practice working across everything from consumer package goods; media and entertainment and sports; retail, fashion and luxury goods; and then advertising, marketing communications, marketing services activity. And then at the end of 2002, decided to take the leap and start my own firm, MJS Executive Search, which I’ve had for the last 15 years.

Dan: Oh wow. And what inspired you to start MJS Executive Search?

Matt: To be very honest, I got to a point where — one, I was part of something that they called the middle management practice at Heidrick, which meant that my searches, although they were still fairly senior, they were less senior than the work that the organisation typically does, which is at the top of organisation. So my average fees were more in the $75,000 to $85,000 range and the opportunity for me to reach a goal of 1.2 million or more was very difficult. So it really limited my overall compensation. So I was still doing very, very well and the group had grown to 90 people and then back down to 5 of us. And I said, “Wow, I could probably do half as much work and make twice as much money.” Little did I know, I was that — I didn’t know what I didn’t know and jumped out as an entrepreneur and said, “I can make this work.” And quickly reality set in and it was a little bit more challenging than I thought. The formula wasn’t so easy with no brand recognition and I wasn’t bringing any clients along. I was really starting with a blank sheet of paper. But I dug in, focused on getting one brand at a time on to our roster, and then over time developed the unique positioning that we have today and the clients that we have today, that are kind of the who’s who of fortune 500.

Dan: Yes and I know you work with a lot of famous clients. Maybe share some of those brands with us.

Matt: Yes, so over the last 15 years we’ve worked with the likes of PepsiCo; American Express; Honeywell; Direct TV; Fidelity Investments; New York Life; Equinox Fitness Clubs; Pitney Bowes, just to name a few. So as you can tell, some of these companies are really on the cutting edge and some are probably looking to play a little more catch up in the marketplace. And the reason why they hire us over a lot of other search firms out there is that we have a unique positioning and we focus on what we like to call ‘transformational talent.’ We’ve actually trademarked that. And what that means to us is, we saw a trend where clients were not hiring us for plain vanilla roles, they were hiring us for opportunities that had often never existed before within their business, skillsets that were not organic to the company or the industry, or roles that needed a significant upgrade due to an infusion of digital marketing or technology. So at first we were calling it digital marketing transformation, and then one of our clients at American Express said, “Wow it sounds like you’re involved in more business re-imagination.” And so I said, “That’s fantastic!”

Dan: That’s a great name.

Matt: Yes, we’re staffing — we’re an executive search firm, so we can’t take credit for reimagining your business, but we can in terms of bringing world class unique talent to the table. And I’m happy to share some of those unique searches that we work on that have gotten us to where we are today.

Dan: Yes, maybe share with us — so in terms of transformational talent, nowadays companies — what do they look for and how is it different than from say ten, twenty years ago?

Matt: Yes. So in the past, people had less access to individuals. So for example, when I –at my first search firm, research consisted of staying late after hours and going through file drawers to pull out resumes of who we were going to call the next day. Then that moved into more of a formal database, where we would have a single individual in our office pulling database runs to create lists of names for us. And then fast forward many years: obviously everyone has access to LinkedIn.

So in some ways people look at search as a little bit easier, because LinkedIn is such a tool. The bigger challenge though, is that LinkedIn I think also has made a lot of folks in search, both on the client side and the search firm side, a little bit lazy. Because it’s very easy to generate a list, it’s much more difficult to cull down that list to make sure you’re focusing on the highest quality, highest probability leads that could be relevant to your client. Because in today’s market, candidates are way over-subscribed in terms of opportunities coming their way. They’re highly selective and they’re only picking their head up for the most unique, intriguing opportunities that come their way.

Dan: Makes sense. And Matt, can you think of a story where, let’s say one of the big Fortune 500 actually get a hire firm and they hire an executive and it turns out just to be a nightmare. Or maybe another story where they actually use a firm and it turns out to be a great hire. What’s the difference?

Matt: Absolutely. Let me think a little bit about the nightmare situation, because luckily that does not reflect our track record, knock on wood. But in the case — let me give you a really interesting example around transformational talent in terms of what helped us define our story.

PepsiCo reacquired their bottlers a handful of years ago, and with that acquisition came vending, fountain and cooler equipment. So if you think about what Pepsi does, they’re great at manufacturing the drinks and the snacks, and marketing those products. Well, all of a sudden, they own a distribution channel, or a series of distribution channels in the vending fountain and cooler equipment. And so they said, “Hey why don’t we turn that equipment into what we call retail-tainment. So can we create a vending machine that’s a giant touch screen with facial recognition, the ability to pay with your smartphone, play a videogame or sing karaoke with Beyoncé before buying your drink, right?”

Dan: That’s cool.

Matt: And then, having all of this equipment connected online so the company has data to drive optimization around manufacturing, supply chain and maintenance. So they challenged us to find the team leaders who were engineers with NBAs, who had created products or services that had never existed before in the market, who could come and figure out this engineering challenge and bring it to market.

So ultimately, our first hire was an individual who was one of the original creators of Xbox Kinect at Microsoft. So as you can imagine, he was not thinking that his next role would be with a packaged goods company. But ended up making the move and spending six or seven years within the organisation. And subsequently we placed a handful of other people, including a gentleman from Microsoft Ford Sync relationship, someone else from the transportation industry where they had a series of connected RFID enabled pallets and tracking mechanisms. And then ultimately, they hired us to identify the head of big data to collect that data and distribute it across the enterprise.

Dan: Matt, it almost sounds like when you are interviewing and you are putting together these talents, you have to see beyond than just what is, you have to almost find the hidden talents or even skillsets that they have they might not realise that it might work for other industries. Is that right?

Matt: We say that all the time. We say we invent people. We don’t fabricate them obviously, because they have to be real, but we have to invent them. And what that means is we have to look at their background, figure out the threads of experiences that make them a fit for this opportunity, and then again be able to communicate the nuances of the role, the company, the story, to get them attracted and prepare them with the right understanding so they can go in and give the appropriate examples to hopefully win the role.

Dan: I’m curious then, from the talents point of view, what questions do you ask, what process you put them through so you know you can connect them to the right role or opportunity?

Matt: Yea, so first of all, we work on behalf of the companies that hire us. So we are a retained search firm. So companies hire us on exclusive to identify very specific qualified and interested people that fit their role.

How a fit is defined is, we take the position spec from the client or we help prepare that spec with the client. Very often clients will put together a job description that includes everything and the kitchen sink. And one of the important things about hiring a search firm is that you want them not only to bring the right people, but you’re looking for their insights. You know: what kind of knowledge of the market do we have that can help them better understand what’s realistic and what’s not realistic? So it’s our job to be able to look at that job description and say, “You know what? You’re looking for these ten things. In our experience we’ve seen people with six out of the ten, seven out of the ten, but you’re probably not going to get all ten. What’s most important to you?” And really showcase that. And maybe that could be even through some sample profiles that we talk them through. Then from there, once we’re all in agreement, we create something that we call an acid test, which is the three to six key criteria that a candidate must have to be appropriate for the role. And that acid test is also made up of kind of a secondary acid test that reflects the cultural elements and the personal qualities that a company would be looking for, as well as a fit for that management style of that hiring leader.

From there, during our interview process it’s a competency based interview. So we go one by one, not only listening to the candidate’s story and why they made the decisions and made the moves that they did, but as they get to specific parts of their background, it’s important for us to dig deep in terms of examples. So again, you’ve got the three to six key criteria, you need to get two to three examples in each bucket. And the way we vet out those examples is really getting — making sure the candidate has nowhere to hide: so what was the situation when you were dealing with this opportunity or this challenge? What was the situation? What did you do? What did you say? Who did you interact with? What obstacles did you overcome? And then ultimately: what was the ultimate result? And sometimes those results weren’t positive but maybe the candidate had a significant learning experience from that. But getting a sense of those examples, two to three for each criterion, really helps us create somewhat of a score card to understand how that candidate measures up against the others that we’ve identified. And gives the client a very clear understanding that this is someone that’s truly qualified and interested in their role.

So when we look at someone’s resume, our first thing is not to accept it and think that they’re absolutely fantastic, it’s actually to do the opposite. It’s to look at the resume with the client’s eyes to be able to say, “Ok, what key questions or concerns do I have about this person, of why they may or may not be right for this role?”

Dan: Awesome. That makes a lot of sense. Matt, what about in terms of corporate America, with what’s happening with technology? A lot of jobs, obviously they are disappearing because they are replaced by robots and machines.

Matt: Yes.

Dan: What talents do you think let’s say in the next three, five years would be most in demand?

Matt: We are seeing it already. We are doing a tremendous amount of work at the intersection of marketing, innovation, data and technology. In some cases this is big data, artificial intelligence, machine learning folks at a senior level. Media has changed dramatically, companies are spending less and less on television but now need to identify: how do we create the optimal media mix, combining both television and digital, and reach audiences in a much more segmented manner?

Let’s see here — the rise of the cheap digital officer is also something very interesting. In some recent work that we’ve done — it’s funny, we’d love to find that person that is all things to all people and really is the worldwide expert in digital, but more often than not, we’re finding people that are broader based, little bit more generalist, and then they’re hiring a series of highly trained specialists to lead capabilities to make their organisations world class.

Dan: That makes sense. Very, very interesting. What about from the talent’s point of view? What do they look for in terms of finding their perfect job or their perfect opportunity? What do talents look for?

Matt: It’s been amazing how things have changed so significantly. It used to be that people were excited to look for a job and look for increased pay, but as we get more involved in these more highly technical and skilled roles, I find the number one reason that people are open to making a change is the challenge. Are they going to be challenged and have a dynamic opportunity elsewhere? So challenge is number one.

Competitive pay is number two. The more rare and in demand these skill sets are, the more expensive these candidates get. And companies are having to adapt and getting a wakeup call very, very suddenly that they can’t believe how young these candidates are and how highly priced they are. So competitive pay is number two.
Great company culture is also important. People want to go places where they can actually stay and have a career, not just a job. So being able to look at that culture and be excited about going to work in an environment where they can have growth and challenge is definitely highly important.

And then lastly: last but not least, is people really care who they’re going to work for. You know, we go to work for great companies, but at the end of the day people go work with great people. So just because you’re at a world class company, if you don’t connect with your manager, it could be a real challenge. So those are probably the key four things that people are focused on.

Dan: So basically what you’re saying is, in terms of talents: before, maybe the companies, the organisations had more of the power of, “Hey, we’re hiring people,” you guys — people are begging for the job. Now it’s kind of the reverse of that: companies, they need talents, but talents are very selective: “Ok, this is who I want to work for. Do I like the people? Do I fit into the culture? Am I getting paid?” So kind of like the power has been reversed.

Matt: Absolutely.

Dan: Very, very interesting. So when you are talking with talents — so the value that corporations bring to the individual, of why they should work for this company, if they’re very, very good.

Matt: One hundred percent. Our best clients are ones that — I don’t want to say put us through training, but they definitely provide us with a lot of information about their business, about their brand. We take a lot of time in terms of upfront investment, not only on each individual search, but also when we on-board a new client relationship it’s really important to us to be able to spend time with them, see their offices, understand quite a bit about the organisational structure and the key leadership, as well as what’s important to them as a company, not only today but for the future.

Dan: It almost sounds like even the brand of the corporation has an impact on this as well. If — let’s say we have two companies: “A” company is known for being innovative or the founder is well known or people looked up to him, then it seems to be easier for him to attract the talent that he wants. On the other hand, you have company “B”, maybe it’s a little bit more conservative, little bit more corporate, like young people say, “I don’t want to work for that company, they’re not very innovative.” That also makes a difference.

Matt: Absolutely. It’s really important. Not only that, the difference between the nimbleness of a public company versus a private company can make a huge impact. So a private company that maybe have a little bit more free cash and the ability to spend on technology, is a lot more attractive than an old mind publicly traded company that is more concerned about quarterly earnings than they are about moving the business forward as quickly as possible.

Dan: Very interesting. And what about in terms of companies: what do companies have to do in order to evolve or they might get left behind?

Matt: Again, the reliance on data is super, super important. So the more companies can get access and information on their customers, the better off they’re going to be. We’re seeing — I don’t want to say a trend, because I think it’s been a long-standing trend that’s been developing over the last number of years — but many companies that might have been much more engineering driven or product focused are realising that now they need to be much more customer-centric. Customers are demanding a much more personalised experience and in order to get there, their ability to dig into the data, segment their audiences and create curated personalised content is absolutely key. So again, the talent has to follow trends such as that.

Dan: Now assuming that we’ve now hired the talent and we’ve put them through the process, and they’re now working in the company, what would be a compelling compensation? How do we retain these talents?

Matt: It really varies. It’s amazing: some companies are very heavy from a cash standpoint, others are very heavy in a stock component. So one thing that’s public information and they’re not a client of ours is Amazon. They actually pay far below market as far as cash compensation, but then they gave a significant amount of stock to their new hires and existing employees that puts their compensation hopefully at or above market. So, great for them, it really drives the entire organisation to continue to create value and growth in the company. But most companies don’t have that opportunity that Amazon does. My understanding is the highest base salary within Amazon doesn’t exceed $200,000 and there are no cash bonuses. Everything is in stocks. That’s pretty amazing in today’s market, that someone could make a base of $185,000 to $200,000 and total compensation could be over a million for example.

Dan: Oh wow, but at the same time it’s because of the brand of Amazon, people want to work for Amazon, they believe Amazon. It’s going to be huge, it’s already huge, but it’s going to be even bigger in terms of — in a few years, right?

Matt: The total compensation is real. They are achieving it through their stock value, so it’s fantastic. Most of our clients, since they’re not Amazon, they need to compete in different ways. So they would have a competitive base salary, a short-term bonus, and then some sort of long term incentive plan or an L tip. And that can be paid in the form of either cash, or a combination of restricted stock and options.

Dan: What about, Matt, in terms of you looking for clients, do you work exclusively with Fortune 500 companies? Who is your ideal client?

Matt: So, most of our initial clients are the heads of talent management or talent acquisition for these organisations. Typically they tend to be larger companies, because they understand the value of a retained search firm, they have the budgets to be able to pay our fees. And then from there, once we have that relationship, they bring us in to speak to different hiring leaders within their organisation, which could be everything from a CEO, division president, CMO and heads of big data analytics, etcetera. And we’ll go in, pitch the opportunity and hopefully win it, and then execute the search from there.

Dan: Makes sense. I want to talk a little bit about the business and your entrepreneurial journey. Share with us: what, during the time when you started in 2003, what are one or two of the most important business lessons that you’ve learned?

Matt: There are so many. First of all, as an entrepreneur, I need to continue to be learning all the time. If I’m not learning, I’m dying, basically. So how I go about that is I read a lot of books. I am a member of EO – Entrepreneurs Organisation. So that is a peer organisation that is focused on helping the world leading entrepreneurs to learn and grow. So I’ve been a very active member in that for many many years. So that gives me not only a group of people that are in a variety of different businesses to help me understand or solve different issues and challenges that I may have, but also, I have other people to relate to as far as the entrepreneurial journey, since it is kind of a 360 experience: business, family, personal, right? So that’s that.

Second of all, it took me a while to really manage the financial aspect. I had an accountant, I then got myself a bookkeeper, but I still wasn’t very clear in terms of how to focus on money coming and going, how to pay people internally in the new organisation. It’s not something you just make up and give people raises and bonuses every year. There’s got to be a formalised structure. So it took me a little while to figure that out. But one of the things that I adapted was, I was introduced to a gentleman by the name of Mike Michalowicz and his ‘profit first’ concept. Are you aware of that?

Dan: Yes, I’ve read that book, yes.

Matt: Ohm you have, ok great. So, Mike and I are friends and he’s also an EO guy. And for your audience, it’s very interesting. I love this methodology and it’s really worked for us and it’s really changed my life. Instead of revenue minus expenses equals profit, Mike’s philosophy is revenue minus profit equals expenses. So basically, you’re always retaining profit within the business. You’re giving yourself quarterly distributions of that profit to either do something nice for your employees or your team or for yourself and your family. And you create a bit of, call it a salary cap for the expenses, because you’re actually limiting yourself based on the buckets that you’re distributing your money into. So, depending on how large the business is, Mike offers up formulas that, when a cheque comes in I know exactly what percentage to put in each bucket. So now when my quarterly tax payments come up there is no — I’m not sweating, I’m not losing sleep. I have a very disciplined way in which that money gets put aside and everything is in its proper place. The other thing is, he talks about kind of a small plate philosophy. When people are on a diet, if you have a larger plate, you’re probably going to fill that plate up and eat everything on it.

Dan: Correct.

Matt: If you have a smaller plate and you limit yourself, you’re probably going to eat less. So same thing with profit first. By having different buckets set up in your business finances — so I have an operating bucket, owner’s pay bucket, profit bucket, and the tax bucket. I actually label those in my bank on my online banking. I put the percentages next to those individual accounts. And then again, when a cheque comes in, I break them up appropriately. So by knowing that that operating account is the most important thing and where I pay my employees from and cover my expenses every month, if that starts to get low it really encourages me to crank up the engines and make sure we’ve got enough search work to continue moving things forward.

Dan: And doesn’t Mike also have another book called The Toilet Entrepreneur, if I remember correctly?

Matt: The Toilet Paper Entrepreneur.

Dan: Yes that’s right. All great books by the way. Awesome. So, I know Matt, you’re also an efficiency expert and you have a lot of these hacks and tricks on how to be more efficient. Maybe share some of those with us.

Matt: Absolutely. So I’m a big fan — a number of years ago I read ‘The Four Hour Work Week’ by Tim Ferris, and although I think a lot of the content maybe a little outdated, as of now, the idea behind it still resonates in a big big way. So for me, after reading that book, I started to outsource quite a bit and I used a number of overseas resources to do all sorts of data entry and administrative work. But then moving forward I realized that these folks were really great at some things and really poor at others. And ultimately, I became friendly with a guy by the name of Ari Meisel, who wrote a book called ‘The Art of Less Doing.’ And his philosophy is much more tech-enabled and he uses all sorts of apps and hacks to help people be more efficient. And with that methodology he created a virtual assistant company called Leverage. And what’s great about Leverage is, I have a monthly subscription where I pay a very small monthly fee and I get a certain amount of hours attached to that, but it’s nominal and then from there I buy blocks of time in 10 hour increments. And I have a Trello board online where I assign different tasks or I list different tasks that I need to get done. And what’s great is Leverage has dozens of virtual assistants who are highly specialized in very specific areas. So they have travel people, online marketing people, researchers and writers and podcast producers and all sorts of great stuff, where I have the confidence that I can get anything done at any time with a highly-qualified individual. And it has changed my life. So I’m a huge fan, because now I have a system that really works and it allows me to get a lot more done in less time. So that’s one thing that I use quite a bit.

The second thing is I love this tool Active Inbox. Active Inbox is a Gmail extension that allows you to look at your email inbox and think of every email as a potential task. So if you look at each email individually, it’s either something that needs to get answered, get done, and you have the ability to actually set it as a task with either a high priority, a low priority, and assign a specific due date to it. So by doing that I can keep my inbox relatively clear, I can set my priorities on a daily, weekly basis and it allows me to really stay super focused in terms of what I need to get accomplished each day.

Dan: Awesome. What about in terms of, like, learning? Because you mentioned you like to learn. Do you like Audible? Or how — do you just read books or do you speed read? Like, what do you do?

Matt: Yes I do, I use Audible. I usually listen to books on one and a half or two-time speed to get through them much more quickly. And try and keep notes whenever possible, when I’m not on the go and listening. But it’s been a super-efficient way to crank through books that wouldn’t usually — that would take me a long time to sit down and just read in my spare time.

Dan: What about apps. Any apps you have on your phone that you love to use? That you cannot live without?

Matt: Yes. Again, definitely Active Inbox, because that is one that I’m constantly setting priorities on. This is a little less business related, but I’m a huge Sonos fan. I’m a big music guy and I enjoy having music everywhere in my life. And the fact that I’ve got it set up throughout my house, hit in from my phone and set different volume levels and different music in different rooms of the house or out on my patio, is something I love. And so I try and have music in my life as much as possible.

Dan: Very cool. Any books you would recommend? I know you have an eBook you can also give away to our listeners as well. Let’s talk about that first actually.

Matt: My eBook?

Dan: Yes.

Matt: Yes, we wrote an eBook on the topic of transformational talent called ‘Hiring Revolution.’ If you are interested you can text ‘mjsearch’ to 44222 and we’ll send that right out to you. So again that’s ‘mjsearch’ to 44222. We’ll get you that eBook. And that’s something that will probably be interesting both to corporate America, as well as individuals who are maybe looking to reinvent themselves and figure out what it takes to become transformational talent. So thanks for asking.

Dan: Thank you . And any books you would recommend for our listener? Maybe your top five.

Matt: Yes, so a couple of books that I like are ‘The One Thing,’ I’m a big fan. Actually going to be on their podcast in the next two weeks or so.

Dan: Nice.

Matt: Yes. So they are — even though, again, with all the efficiency work that I do, that book really helped me get even more granular and more focused, not to mention, it got me to think, “Hey, maybe I can think about what is the one thing in other aspects of my life, whether it’s finances, physical health, personal relationships etcetera and really get even more focused.” So love ‘The One Thing.’

Let’s see. I’ve got to — ‘Profit First,’ again, is a fantastic book. Michael Michalowicz.

Here’s one that maybe some of your listeners don’t know of. I’m a big fan of a guy by the name of Phillip McKernan. And he wrote a neat book called ‘Rich on Paper, Poor on Life.’ So really talking about going after what you want, being authentic in your life, really absolutely fantastic.

Also big Gary Vee fan, really like a lot of what he has to say and the messages he’s putting out there. And obviously he’s got a lot of terrific books, including ‘Ask Gary Vee,’ his most recent one.

Dan: Awesome. That’s good. Those three — Gary’s book I’ve read: the first two I’ve read, but the third one I have not read, so appreciate the suggestion, so I’ll read that as well.

Matt: And you know what? Tim Ferriss’ ‘Tools for Titans’ is also very cool.

Dan: Yes.

Matt: He’s had some spectacular interviews that are epically long, but the fact that he was able to synthesise that down in a book and really provide those kind of key life lessons is absolutely tremendous. So another great one.

Dan: And even ‘Four Hour Work Week,’ like you said, even some of the stuff may be a little bit outdated, but the concept has a lot of valuable lessons within the book.

Matt: I actually had the opportunity to meet Tim and speak with him a couple of years back. And I told him he changed my life, and it was less about — and he asked why, and I said: it’s less about the activities that you listed and more the fact that I didn’t need to do things the way everyone else did, and anything was possible. My industry has been around for a long time, there are a lot of talented people who are very, very traditional, and the way in which we’ve embraced technology and speed and have really streamlined our processes for our clients — we could basically hand people what we do and they still probably would have trouble doing it the way we do it. So the fact that he was able to kind of open me up to that, those possibilities, was very very positive for me.

Dan: Fantastic. And then I always ask my guests this one question. So get ready for it. If you could travel back to one day of maybe — many, many years ago — day of your earlier days, and have a five, ten minutes’ conversation with your younger self, former self, to communicate any lessons you’ve acquired with the intention of saving yourself mistakes and headaches, what would you tell yourself?

Matt: I would say that we need to trust our gut and look for patterns in life. For a long time I think I was very much in my head, a little nervous to express myself and think that my insights and opinions mattered. Or even, again, my insights mattered. And was really encouraged by some early bosses and mentors who said, “You know what? You’ve got a lot going on, you’ve got a lot more to say than you’re giving yourself credit for. If you’re going to be successful in this business you need to realise that you’re paid for your insights, not just for the people that you’re able to present to a client.” And by — after all of these years, reflecting back, I would say once I started listening to that and paying attention and getting out of my comfort zone, it made all the difference in the world. And jumping off that entrepreneurial cliff definitely is the best way to get you out of your comfort zone. No net.

Dan: No net. Jumping off the plane without a parachute basically.

Matt: Exactly.

Dan: Awesome, awesome. Any final thoughts? And maybe also share your contact information with our listeners, if they want to get in touch with you they could.

Matt: Great. Yes, I can be reached — our website is mjsearch.com. And again, that eBook can be received by texting ‘mjsearch’ to 44222. And if a company is in need of hiring senior level transformational talent, or would just like to know us better, we’d love to hear from them.

Dan: Thank you Matt. Thank you so much for inspiring us today with your amazing story and just sharing your thoughts and ideas. I appreciate it and our listeners appreciate it as well. Thank you.

Matt: Thank you so much Dan, great to be on.